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The Associated Worlds
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Where air movement is written about.
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Morgrim Moon 08/13/2018 10:33 AM
@Unknown sidling over to the shiny new correct channel, sadly I am going to go to bed in a few minutes and not finish it right now, but I have 'very clearly first draft and I haven't written the beginning' if you're desperate enough for a fix 😛
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Let us wait til final writing, I sad.
10:34
*say
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Reposting so I can pin it here, too:
16:53
Fanfiction policy: Well, first, I'm rather gratified to discover that I need a fanfiction policy... 1. I don't have any objection to fanfiction per se . Content-wise, however, I would like to politely request that fanfic writers write in, or respect, the spirit of the original work and characters, and somewhat less politely request, for the love of gods, spare us badly-written porn. Apart from that, feel free to enjoy yourselves. 2. If publishing it anywhere people other than you can see it, please include (a) a disclaimer that it is fanfic, (b) a link to the original Eldraeverse site, and (c) a note that it is licensed under the Creative Commons as derivative, non-commercial fiction. You also specifically grant me all rights to reuse any or all elements of it that I might wish to, such that in the event that I stumble across it on the Internet or just happen to write something similar in future, you can't sue me. 3. If talking about it here, please do so in the #fanfic channel to avoid confusion.
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@Morgrim Moon "I really can't put you back in that, it has holes in it!" made my day, that.
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Morgrim Moon 08/20/2018 4:52 AM
Thank you :D
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But overall man, solid (first) Fanfic of the Eldraeverse? Congrats, and solid man! 👍
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Morgrim Moon 08/20/2018 5:11 AM
I'm kind of surprised, honestly, I thought someone had to have done some sort of author-approved crossover by now, there's been enough "but what if" questions
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@Morgrim Moon I've been on-off playing with the idea, but I've not been finding a good hook. Something like yours works really well, but that... kinda feels about like what it could be. I suppose the "successor" to your story would be: "Uploaded Baseline 2: The Killbot Sleevin' Bagolou" 😛 That is something I could maybe take a shot at. (edited)
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Morgrim Moon 08/20/2018 8:31 AM
I am a compulsive worldbuilder, I can toss you stuff on the arboreal repto-mammal squirrelish thing the unnamed baseline is 😛 Descriptors got cut when I switched to dialogue-only fic, alas.
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Eh, from what I have fermenting in my head the revenge would be exercuted in physical nature through the power of a high-powered modular Killbot. And it be pretty revenge fantasy-ish due to the power an uploaded and connected and generally aug-enabled sophont has, but shrug I suspect he wasn't exactly shot by transophont people either? (edited)
08:33
Though, question: Ques-qe ce a splinter-shard?
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Morgrim Moon 08/20/2018 8:34 AM
That I never figured out. Maybe ordinary run of the mill piratish types? It's the Expansion Regions, there are uncivilised brigands about, and a culture that has 'established in orbit' spacetech but not interstellar is probably a decent mix of "has things worth stealing already outside the gravity well" without the "has big enough guns and defence to make this suicidal"
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fires up Scriviner
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Morgrim Moon 08/20/2018 8:36 AM
splinter-shard = close friend/family group, chosen family, the set of people who would get invited on a road trip/pay bail for the ones that went on the road trip. A smaller subset of ones shard, or clan
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Your Eldrae have a name in the drafts?
08:38
(yes, I am taking a shot at this right now.)
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Morgrim Moon 08/20/2018 8:38 AM
sadly no, I am terrible at naming things
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Darn. So am I. (edited)
08:39
Has Fantasy Name Generator an Eldrae category already?
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Morgrim Moon 08/20/2018 8:40 AM
feed canonical names into a neural net and see what comes out?
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How much effort would that be?
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or just a markov chain
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I can almost imagine myself going through the old works collecting names.
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Morgrim Moon 08/20/2018 8:41 AM
no idea, I'm a chemist not a programmer
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But to my shame, I don't think I could set up a neural net.
08:41
(and here me theoretically doing a comp-sci degree) (edited)
08:41
(well, elec eng/comp sci double. Same diff)
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A thing likely to muck up such a neural net, of course, is that eldrae names come from more'n a few different ethnic naming traditions; say, the Azikhanian Vitremarvis and Vidumarvis as compared, say, to the Selenarian Oricalcios, the Cestian Cyprium, the Ochale Tsurilen, and so forth. So you've got an interestingly disjoint set to deal with.
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@morgrimmoon#0077
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MarcusAurelius 08/20/2018 9:36 PM
Looks like the only practical solution would be for the author to drop a list of canonical but unused names.....
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Or you get fascinating messy hybrid names such as you get when several naming tradditions have to share a culture.
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Well I’m pretty sure that “Takeshi” is a given name and “Kovacs” is the guy’s surname.
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Since all the eldraeic naming tradditions are pretty far from English, and in roughly the same direction, I'm not sure anyone is gonna notice.
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MarcusAurelius 08/20/2018 9:51 PM
Except if the author ever wanted to borrow some of this as he’s entitled to, he’d have to fix the names, And I know I at least would feel better knowing I’m writing as close to canon as possible without doing a fusion with Cerebrate
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Fair enough. I mean, the kinda eldraeverse fic I'm ever going to consider writting is much more on the line of a Worm crossover than a meaningful expansion to the 'verse, so I'm not a concerned by that.
22:45
Of course, naming is always hard, so if we get a good source of cannonical names, or a good way to make new ones.
22:45
That'd be awesome.
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MarcusAurelius 08/20/2018 10:45 PM
I’m slowing discovering how much of a thing Worm is. I’m only just now working my way through it for the first time (edited)
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Ah, I haven't even read it. It's just the circles I move in have a lot of Worm-fic so I end up with a few different ideas for crossovers/alt-powers for it.
22:48
The actual thing is way way to grimdark for me.
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MarcusAurelius 08/20/2018 10:49 PM
Unless it gets way darker after the halfway point, it’s not that dark
22:49
It’s about on the level of a gritty detective show, so far
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well, uh, spoilers. But it's a story which always seemed to me to be intended to maximise the suffering of the protagonist.
22:51
And that comes across as really undesirable.
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MarcusAurelius 08/20/2018 10:52 PM
I’d say try reading the first few parts. It’s relatively quick, and should give you a good feel. I’m avoiding saying anything specific, though
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I have read like, a bit. Up to, like the undersiders meeting? I might read it eventually.
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MarcusAurelius 08/20/2018 10:53 PM
If nothing else, read the interludes because they provide a really interesting look into the world with minimal spoilers
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Uh, you heard what I said about reading a lot of fic of it.
22:53
I am quite well-acquainted with both the plot and the world-building. (edited)
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MarcusAurelius 08/20/2018 10:54 PM
Well nevermind then
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Where are you up to?
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I created a thing. It's about eldraeic funeral rituals... in a sense.
00:13
Feedback would be greatly appreciated.
00:42
Very good one, @xandeross. 👍
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Morgrim Moon 10/26/2018 11:37 AM
https://archiveofourown.org/tags/Associated%20Worlds%20Series%20-%20Alistair%20Young Well, someone that reads your works is clearly an AO3 tag wrangler 😉
An Archive of Our Own, a project of the Organization for Transformative Works
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should I be getting a 404?
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Morgrim Moon 10/26/2018 11:55 AM
er, no
11:59
Fully formatted Fandom Category already having a disambiguation tag? That's not the automated system, someone's done that by hand.
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MarcusAurelius 10/26/2018 1:03 PM
tragically Morgrim's story appears to be the only one on that site using the tag "this is humor not angst"
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Random fanfic idea: Taylor (i.e. protagonist of Worm) gets a link to the Eldraic Transcend as her power.
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"Oh dear, your world really has some problems does it?"
00:29
I'm assuming it would assign her several therapists, and then subsquently several uplift specialists.
00:29
(I don't know how the transcend would react to that kind of anomaly, though) (edited)
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MarcusAurelius 12/18/2018 12:31 AM
Part of the reaction would be “oh , hey, that’s where greenlife and ourselves originated from”
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0111narwhalz 12/18/2018 12:32 AM
"are those Pseudoeldrae?"
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Probably.
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BizarroLand ♀ 12/18/2018 12:32 AM
Apocalypse in 10.. 9... 8
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0111narwhalz 12/18/2018 12:33 AM
"what have you done to your bandals?"
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And it makes for an interesting power to actually use.
00:33
Beyond some fascinated commities.
00:33
(I'm assuming the transcend would keep things mostly secret)
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MarcusAurelius 12/18/2018 12:34 AM
“Hey guys lets ship her a Legion, she sounds like she could use one”
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(At least until both worlds are properly connected)
00:34
I'm assuming the connection is purely mental.
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BizarroLand ♀ 12/18/2018 12:34 AM
7... 6... 5
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It's a data-pipe in her brain.
00:34
But otherwise very yes.
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MarcusAurelius 12/18/2018 12:34 AM
“May take 10-15 business centuries for delivery”
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In the short-term, what's the best stuff they can do for her?
00:35
Shipping through plans for cool post-tech is one.
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0111narwhalz 12/18/2018 12:35 AM
"Hey you should probably keep an eye out for those precursors. They seem like jerks, from the archaeological evidence."
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"Hmm. How can we turn a 21st century hardware store into a vector-drive as quickly as possible"
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MarcusAurelius 12/18/2018 12:36 AM
The problem is most of the Empire’s nice tech requires a massive pile of “build the tool to build the tool to ...” They could give her really, really good counseling though, and some fun get rich quick ideas
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Also, taylor having, like, function (post)human relationships.
00:37
Get rich quick!
00:37
Good plan!
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0111narwhalz 12/18/2018 12:37 AM
>taking an engineering exam >"ooh ooh we know this one"
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I have a mental image of her trying to badger armsmaster into letting her use tinker-tech to bootstrap herself.
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0111narwhalz 12/18/2018 12:38 AM
Would have to play it carefully, else people will get suspicious.
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I mean, if she's going down the non-powered route.
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MarcusAurelius 12/18/2018 12:38 AM
Or just sit down with Dragon, and be best buddies
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But she could just say "I have a thinker power which gives me advice and information"
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0111narwhalz 12/18/2018 12:38 AM
(incidentally I have no idea what the setting is)
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MarcusAurelius 12/18/2018 12:39 AM
Worm is an internet serial novel, I’m about a third of the way through
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It's a grim-dark superhero setting.
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0111narwhalz 12/18/2018 12:39 AM
ah, okay
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MarcusAurelius 12/18/2018 12:39 AM
It’s a very ... I don’t want to say realistic, but logically approach to superheroes
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with the grittyness and the physics-toy powers and the horrible emotional trauma.
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MarcusAurelius 12/18/2018 12:39 AM
They feel much more like a coherent whole than usual
00:40
And I’d argue it’s noble-dark, actually
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"Hey, your bully? We‘re going to basilisk the bitch."
00:40
"Just show her what comes out of this nifty algorithm."
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I mean, that seems implausible, and also not a good plan.
00:41
Like a really not-good plan.
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BizarroLand ♀ 12/18/2018 12:41 AM
Restazoni in peacazoni Earthazoni
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You do not want to be the next parahuman with a killer power.
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BizarroLand ♀ 12/18/2018 12:41 AM
Also yall do realize that in Worm the reason parahumans even exist
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MarcusAurelius 12/18/2018 12:41 AM
Because the shit that goes down in a certain chapter, yeah that amplifies it ten fold
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(Also super OOC for taylor)
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Basilisk hacks don‘t have to kill.
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(Still super OOC for taylor)
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Besides that, right to fucking self defense.
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0111narwhalz 12/18/2018 12:41 AM
ooh
00:41
can you do psychdesign via a basilisk?
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(By Eldrae standards.)
00:42
And yes. Look up YGBM hacks.
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0111narwhalz 12/18/2018 12:42 AM
so you could have a basilisk that fixes the bully
00:42
:V
00:42
Marcas, you make this hard!
00:42
There's end-of-story stuff I want to talk about.
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BizarroLand ♀ 12/18/2018 12:42 AM
Like yall realize that one thing is kind of gonna be a problem right
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Morgrim Moon 12/18/2018 12:42 AM
I mean, I could actually go ASK Worm's author if Eldraeverse is interesting and get a canonical answer from that end, but given Worm I think the answer is "bafly"
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BizarroLand ♀ 12/18/2018 12:43 AM
The You Know What
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0111narwhalz 12/18/2018 12:43 AM
uhoh, not the You Know What
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[on the nature of basilisks] And indeed, most of them don't: the leading examples are things like the Out-of-Mind textures and the Must-Have-It Box. (edited)
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MarcusAurelius 12/18/2018 12:43 AM
Y’all can go ahead, I’m gonna duck out so y’all can take about end game stuff
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BizarroLand ♀ 12/18/2018 12:43 AM
THE SHARD????
00:43
Thats a massive wrench in any of the plans to fix the world
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(The Must-Have-It Box being the only class of object which is specifically exempted from all laws concerning theft. Because everyone Must Have It.)
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0111narwhalz 12/18/2018 12:44 AM
From the name, I expect something sharp and pointy.
00:44
Does it stab people who try to make things nice?
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BizarroLand ♀ 12/18/2018 12:44 AM
Its the reason parahumans exist and well
00:44
Idk myself
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The Shard are giant alien supercomputers that give people powers.
00:44
They also give people drives to fight other people with powers.
00:44
And generally reduce san points.
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BizarroLand ♀ 12/18/2018 12:45 AM
Oh i didnt know so
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(They have vast comput power but no smarts/creativity)
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0111narwhalz 12/18/2018 12:45 AM
oh, so you mean there's another giant supercomputer network for our hypothetical giant supercomputer network to fight?
00:45
sweet
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BizarroLand ♀ 12/18/2018 12:45 AM
Another supercomputer network existing implies a greater scheme going on
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They can simulate millions of humans but still need to get humans to beat each other up to figure out how to use thier powers.
00:45
Yep!
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BizarroLand ♀ 12/18/2018 12:45 AM
Thats interesting
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The Alien entities are trying to beat entropy.
00:46
But they don't do complex/origional thought.
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0111narwhalz 12/18/2018 12:46 AM
so are the Eldrae
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BizarroLand ♀ 12/18/2018 12:46 AM
Ontoyechnology boyes
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0111narwhalz 12/18/2018 12:46 AM
maybe they would end up not fighting
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So they give thier tools to randoms dudes.
00:46
And then commit mass genocide to do analsysis.
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Transcendant: crack knuckles move aside Gentlesophs, we got this.
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They are both stupid and pretty evil.
00:46
Just powerful and alien also.
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0111narwhalz 12/18/2018 12:46 AM
Transcend: "your intentions are good but your methods are idiotic"
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Indeed.
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I'm pretty sure by eldraeic standards the Entities are perversions. Stupid perversions that lucked into an ontotechnological toybox they don't know how to properly take advantage of.
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Just to be clear: They have enough dataprocessing for "Path to victory" to be a valid power.
00:47
I.e. literally, the superpower of setting a victory condition, then being told what you need to do to achive it.
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0111narwhalz 12/18/2018 12:47 AM
oh sweet
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but are functionally sub-human in actual intelligence.
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0111narwhalz 12/18/2018 12:48 AM
so they should just set the victory condition to "reverse entropy in a closed system" and work backwards from there
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I mean, it does work by brute-force universe-simultion.
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0111narwhalz 12/18/2018 12:48 AM
…add in a couple optimization steps midway
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BizarroLand ♀ 12/18/2018 12:48 AM
I was planning on reading worm
00:49
Guess that goes ot the window now
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Eh, most of the story is still fine with this known.
00:49
Like, it's mostly just following one girl through this world.
00:49
As she beats up bigger and bigger bad-guys.
00:49
And suffers horrible trauma.
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BizarroLand ♀ 12/18/2018 12:49 AM
K
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All the magic space whale bullshit doesn't become relevant until the late late game.
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0111narwhalz 12/18/2018 12:49 AM
sounds like Fun
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It's not actually my kind of story.
00:50
I haven't even read it.
00:50
I just interact with the fandom and keep getting reced fics.
00:50
Since SV loves worm-fics.
00:50
Mostly of the form of the one I proposed; giving the protag an alternate power and seeing how she does.
00:51
Generally a better one than her canon power of "Absolute control over all bugs in a four-block radius:
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Many, many altfic powers. My first reaction on seeing the initial suggestion was 'oh god, not more of this shit.'
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0111narwhalz 12/18/2018 12:51 AM
That could be a lot of bugs.
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BizarroLand ♀ 12/18/2018 12:51 AM
Afaik worms world is on the decline because phecing parahumans keep blowing hp everything
00:52
The economy cant recover when some punks are destroying cities every saturday
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It's the ENdbringers.
00:52
The big monsters which destroy a city every three months.
00:52
And cannot be killed.
00:53
More warmachines used by the Entites to provoke conflict.
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The power also allows her to use the bugs' senses and process all of that input, so it's also basically local limited omniscience. By way of bugs.
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0111narwhalz 12/18/2018 12:53 AM
That sounds like a challenge.
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BizarroLand ♀ 12/18/2018 12:53 AM
Kaiju?
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Really nasty Kaiju.
00:53
One has total energy control in 100m ish radius.
00:53
One has continent-scale water control .
00:53
One has nigh-perfect precog and telekinesis.
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0111narwhalz 12/18/2018 12:53 AM
hey that's cheating
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And re-writes peoples brains.
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0111narwhalz 12/18/2018 12:54 AM
why does it get two
00:54
what dingus balanced this boss?
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Because it's gimmick is re-writing people's brains so that they go insane and ruin as much as possible at the worst possible moment.
00:54
And it needed both powers for that.
00:57
On the more local level, the main villains of note in the city the protag lives in are a guy who has regeneration/pryokineissi/turning into a dragon which ramp up the longer he fights.
00:57
A whole team of neonazis.
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0111narwhalz 12/18/2018 12:57 AM
…are they super-neonazis or just regular ones?
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And a guy who's power it to split the timeline in two, experince both, and the pick which one to keep at the end.
00:57
Super-neonazis.
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0111narwhalz 12/18/2018 12:57 AM
oh fun
00:57
:V
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Powers include but are not limited to: Telekinetic control of anything touched, short-duration powergranting, creating metal blades, turning into a giant wolf made of blades.
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0111narwhalz 12/18/2018 12:59 AM
Powergranting sounds like an especially dangerous one, from a plot standpoint.
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It lasts less than a minute and she has a limited list.
01:01
So it's not that broken.
01:01
But there are a lot of more dangerous powers, TBH.
01:03
On the hero's side, the best powers are probably armsmaster, who is a tinker (someone who can creat nonsensical super-tech) with a theme of efficeny, clockblocker, who can stop time for anything he touches (which is non-cancelable, lasts ~1 min but varies, and renders the object largely indestructable for duration), and vista, who can pretty freely reshape any space without a living entitiy in it.
01:05
There are a lot of kinda limited-purview powers that are broken.
01:06
I mean, then you get to eidolon, who's power is any three powers.
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0111narwhalz 12/18/2018 1:07 AM
…hopefully with a "wishing for more wishes" failsafe built in
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I think he can use any given power once, but there are so many miniscule variations on each possibility it's only a limitation in the long- run strategic sense; by the time of the story he's still incredibly powerful, but less than he was when he started out, and growing a tiny bit less capable every battle.
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Yeah, it's also limited by the fact that he's an uncreative dumbass.
01:10
He always has one slot set for flight of some kind.
01:10
And doesn't downtime tinker-tech.
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0111narwhalz 12/18/2018 1:11 AM
"the power to wipe all previously used powers"
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I think the limiting factor is actually that his shard only has a limited power supply.
01:11
It's an Eden shard.
01:12
(Eden is the entity which died, and it's death meant the living Entity, Zion, is spending all it's time mopeing, rather than getting on with rendering humanity down into data)
01:13
(Even though the god-entities are pretty dumb, there was a lot of fuckups before humanity had even a fighting chance)
01:16
So yeah! Given this is the field of play, how can the transcend/whichever individual eldrae it hires to help because named charecters are good, cheat and win? (edited)
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BizarroLand ♀ 12/18/2018 12:21 PM
From thousands of Ly away, I don't think much
12:27
@Archon They could give her counselling and tell her how to overpower or at least avoid the people giving her trouble
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I mean, yes, but ultimately it's still a superhero story, y'know? So we have to find the most narratively interesting version if The Eldrae Guide to Civilization Bootstraping on a Dollar a Day.
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BizarroLand ♀ 12/18/2018 8:58 PM
@BizarroLand ♀ Asides about Imperial captains nuking Earth aside, I'm not sure how the Eldrae would react to us, who are quite literally the mediocre prototype versions of themselves
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Did you just @ yourself?
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BizarroLand ♀ 12/18/2018 9:01 PM
meant to ping @Archon (edited)
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I think Cerebrate mentioned something about an uplifted whale going after Japanese whalers with supercavitating torpedoes.
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I can see what you mean; I think you're looking at a different genre to what I'm thinking about?
21:03
WRT to you thinking about first contact.
21:04
Whereas I'm thinking about how the eldrae's knowledge-base is a power-source.
21:04
Uh, how can I put this? It's not really about the Eldrae, exactly, so much as how "Talking to the Eldrae" can be used/abused as a superpower.
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BizarroLand ♀ 12/18/2018 9:05 PM
The Transcend seems to be more of a collective subconscious type deal than a technical repository
21:05
I'm not sure the strain of speaking to trillions of alien minds wouldn't just break Taylor in half
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There was that "Rent-A-Thought" story.
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I mean, my general assumption is that the collective subconcious would be no more damaging to her than it is for anyone else.
21:06
And that it would probably open up a chat line to a handful of individual eldrae who would be helpful.
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Well, unless she tried to integrate with it and then back out. That might be problematic.
21:07
But, just emailing the Eikones would be useful enough.
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Yeah, you get post from an Eikone, and them get it get's passed along a and bounced about until we get to someone small enough to be a charecter and not a deus ex machina.
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Nuking? No. There are far bigger asshats than humanity around in the Associated Worlds, and they haven't nuked them yet.
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The Eldrae would be hypocrites if they nuked everyone who annoyed them.
00:40
(Or at least, I feel it'd lose them the moral high ground)
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And, y'know, Earth the planet is quite interesting, assuming we haven't got done wrecking the place by then. On the other hand, there's a peculiarly apposite Douglas Adams quotation, which one might well consider appropriate if you switch the subjects around: "The ape descendant will greet him in return, but in deference to a million years of evolution he will not attempt to pick fleas off him. Earthmen are not proud of their ancestors, and never invite them round to dinner."
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Morgrim Moon 12/19/2018 12:49 AM
It would be a fascinating study opportunity comparing uplifts to the natural sophant descendents of the pre uplift species
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Also RE wrecked earth... uh, pretty sure Worm earth is rather demolished.
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I mean, depends on the time line.
03:19
At "Canon start", which, give or take 3 months is where this fic would start.
03:19
It's merely much gloomier and has a massively depressed economy.
03:19
And like 40 less medium-to-large cities.
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TIL that it was only in 2000 that, in the US, retired police and military dogs were able to be adopted. Before then, it was official policy to euthanize anydog that was old enough to retire. This has been today's entry on the "You Earthlings are fucking savages with neither honor nor loyalty - and, hell, we seriously question your capacity for empathy at this point - and it deeply shames us to share any base pairs with you" side of the balance.
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Morgrim Moon 12/19/2018 8:14 PM
What. blinks Retired service have been able to be adopted here for about a century, every since the absolute shitstorm that happened when the Light Horse had to abandon their mounts after WW1
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...there are many good things about the US, of which exactly none of them is its government. I swear, they must be selecting for Dark Kantians or something similar to explain the sheer quantity of low-grade evil they spit out every day.
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BizarroLand ♀ 12/19/2018 8:17 PM
"Knowing that cursed blood flows through my veins... it's enough to drive me MAD!"
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Fortunately, one exception was one military dog handler who fought this uphill to get it changed, although too late to save his own dog.
20:20
But even now, I learn, adopting an ex-military dog may mean paying thousands of $ for transportation back from the warzone, because, bureaucratically, being adopted makes them no longer a member of the military, and paying to bring him home would be "fraud, waste, and abuse". Or so says the Department of Defense, who I firmly intend to abandon in active war zones should I ever become planetary dictator.
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BizarroLand ♀ 12/19/2018 8:20 PM
When I look at US history, one has to become practically certain that US politicians aren't just selected for idiocy, they're actively selected for ruthlessness, duplicity, etc etc (edited)
20:21
Not going to name names.
20:23
Even as someone who tries to avoid misanthropy, I completely understand why the eldrae may want to utterly disown us from any cladistic perspective (edited)
20:26
What in US culture or the US political system gives us these endless waves of Lawful Evil types?
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Hierarchical systems in general tend to select for sociopathy.
20:46
Which makes it a shame that we need them.
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BizarroLand ♀ 12/19/2018 9:36 PM
Need?
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Enderminion 12/19/2018 9:38 PM
yes
21:39
without such a system things would be worse
21:39
but that gets into stuff which ends friendships
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[citation needed]
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Why would the eldrae even tolerate the existence of such any entropy-creating pustule as earth? I mean, they've got to have some standards.
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BizarroLand ♀ 12/19/2018 10:16 PM
That passage in that one nanofic implies there are actually quite a lot of backwards peanut shows beyond the Associated Worlds (edited)
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Wouldn't humanity's existence be a insult to eldraeic values?
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0111narwhalz 12/19/2018 10:17 PM
Because it makes more entropy to destroy them, and they might yet be enlightened? :V
22:17
Also because it's, like, really rude to commit genocide.
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BizarroLand ♀ 12/19/2018 10:18 PM
Humanity might cause a visceral offense when they realize the link between us and themselves
22:18
"Knowing that cursed blood flows through my veins... it's enough to drive me MAD!"
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Wouldn't they view humanity as a threat, if they managed to, say, start throwing RKVs around?
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0111narwhalz 12/19/2018 10:20 PM
Well, then they would engage "us" on our own merit.
22:21
i.e. "another lot of RKV-throwing hooligans"
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how would they deal with us doing that?
22:21
Same way they dealt with Litash?
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0111narwhalz 12/19/2018 10:22 PM
Probably not, considering that Litash was also to make a point.
22:22
Also strangelet weapons are illegal now, I think.
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Would the Worlds (whatever it's called) make an exception for that sort of threat?
22:26
Wouldn't RKVs be a pretty big no-no?
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0111narwhalz 12/19/2018 10:27 PM
Probably, but I don't know what the appropriate response would be.
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RKVs are Tier II prohibited weapons (i.e., planet-killers). Any civilization that uses them gets wiped off the face of the galaxy; all signatories to the Ley Accords are required to enforce this ruling. The Accords don’t strictly require that to mean wiping out the entire civilian population, but everyone involved in authorizing or executing the attack ends up dead as a minimum, and whatever’s left of the civ is going to be under a painful and deeply intrusive proctorship at best, and quite possibly back to the Paleolithic.
📌 1
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Morgrim Moon 12/19/2018 10:37 PM
Humanity does more than enough things they'd love as well as things they'd find enraging. I think we'd fall more into the "so much wasted potential" camp, at which point it's socially, economically and practicality better to offer HELP dragging the baselines up to scratch; it might take 2-3 centuries but probably no more than that, and it's definitely worth expending a single lifetime of effort for an interesting planet
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If there is one thing the whole galaxy is agreed on, it is THOU SHALT NOT FUCK WITH STAR-KILLERS, PLANET-KILLERS, ECOCIDERS (on garden worlds), OR UNCONTROLLED SELF-REPLICATING WEAPONS.
📌 1
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What do they do if they find a 'wild' planet-killer (sentient, not controlled by anyone)?
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BizarroLand ♀ 12/19/2018 10:41 PM
(insert climate change joke here)
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a la V'ger from star trek
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0111narwhalz 12/19/2018 10:42 PM
I expect they'd first neutralize it, then study it if possible, and finally destroy it if necessary.
22:43
Depending on the mechanism, neutralization might not leave much to study, but there are priorities.
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Now, as at this point in time, however, humanity are both primitives (which isn’t a sin), and barbarians (which is). But, y’know, children can eventually grow the fuck up, as it were.
22:47
Especially with a little help from the External Rectification & Clarification Ad-Hoc.
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BizarroLand ♀ 12/19/2018 10:54 PM
The who again
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The most professional of the many meddlers in other people’s civilizations.
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BizarroLand ♀ 12/19/2018 11:11 PM
What do they do exactly vis a vis the other ones? I hope this is a more interesting sociology question
23:12
We've seen foreign aid and trying to genuinely 'win the argument'
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Why are you guys so eager to see humanity destroyed for kinda boring reasons?
☝ 2
00:05
Like, we have like half of what they want, and a lot of nutjobs with more power than sense.
00:05
That puts us ahead of a lot of people.
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Good question.
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(And Litash was one of the worst interstellar slaving hubs in the entire worlds, wasn't it?) (edited)
00:06
(Not even pretending to be good people)
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I mean, seriously, as much as I am not writing HFY, I have no interest in writing HFO, either.
00:07
Or even FHO.
00:12
Heavy Fuel Oil?
00:12
I imagine you'd have a hard time writing in that
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"Humanity Fuck Off"
00:12
as opposed to "Humanity Fuck Yeah"
00:13
HFO for stupid reasons (often that we don't have enough True Communism when you dig a little) is what gets you all the kudos and the critics fawning
00:13
HFY is the simplistic reaction to that
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BizarroLand ♀ 12/20/2018 12:15 AM
@Ian Bruene ditto'd x100
00:15
Bonus points if the theme is environmentalism
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Morgrim Moon 12/20/2018 12:25 AM
You can have environmantism without it. Firmly internalise the externals and you're much of the way there.
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I dunno, how well does Heavy Fuel Oil stick to paper?
00:25
What would they think about our having acronyms for everything?
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Morgrim Moon 12/20/2018 12:26 AM
"oh, you want a coal fire station? Sure, but you foot the medical bills for every asthma sufferer in the area"
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@Morgrim Moon Yep. And that’s the main way they’ve been handling it, ‘cause it’s a lot harder to blow off externalities when you can’t just assume you’ll be dead when the bill comes due.
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I kind of want to write an Eldraeverse/Eclipse Phase crossover now
17:56
Probably like one of those Firewall chat logs speculating if the space elves are Exsurgents
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Go right ahead! I don’t have a clue what any of that means, but it sounds cool.
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BizarroLand ♀ 01/08/2019 5:58 PM
If there's any VS. Battle I actually want to see happen, it's my Tiffanians Vs. Zarp's Federation
17:59
But I won't be the one to write that for aforementioned reasons
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Well, the Federation of Parahuman species doesn’t fight many “wars” per se, the Federal Guard mostly does “police actions.”
18:25
That said a typical sub-relativistic ship can depopulate a planet in... a bit more than 16 minutes
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BizarroLand ♀ 01/08/2019 6:28 PM
A Tiffanian battleship can probably vaporize a city if it accelerates to ramming speed (edited)
18:30
A few of the anti kinetic missiles would probably be enough to destroy a planetary civ in a few seconds
18:30
(DOUDA? NISAN)
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Dump my cargo? With all due respect, Emissary, that simply was not possible. Not to impugn your knowledge of interstellar economics, but given we are still half a light-hour apart I feel obliged to…
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BizarroLand ♀ 01/08/2019 6:38 PM
Multiple kilotons at 10% c = bad day for whatever it hits
18:40
@Zarpaulek The principle in Tiffanianverse is that you can't tank hits anyways so dodge
18:40
All vessels are 100% at Propulsion on the triangle
18:43
Torchship combat is often not unlike dogfighting
18:43
except with no atmosphere
18:43
and in space
18:43
and you get the picture
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BizarroLand ♀ 01/08/2019 7:26 PM
We concluded MAD
19:26
Both polities have starships that can go fast enough to annihilate planetary technospheres.
19:28
In any event, the Tiffanians can deploy a maximum BOOM output of about 600 teratons and the Parahumans can crack planets
19:29
One of them goes extinct and the other dances a merry jig among the dustchoked ruins. 'I win, I win!' Curtains fall, applause, the end Gentlesophs, thanks for your patronage etc etc. (edited)
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Note for that epistolary EP/Eldrae crossover: Write one entry about Eldraic genetics (24/26 chromosomes)
21:15
And make some assumptions about biomorph karyotypes
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Bainbridge: Alright, Callosum, you got the sample? Callosum: It would have been better if you got me a stack or a backup, biochemistry isn’t really my specialty. Bainbridge: But you can work with this? Callosum: I’m simulating a brain structure from the genome as we speak. But there’s more here. Bainbridge: I didn’t find any convergence with TITAN tech or the Exsurgent virus. Callosum: Well that’s a relief, but that raises even more questions. Bainbridge: Such as? Callosum: Well, the first thing I noticed was the karyotype, you know that most Flats, Splicers, and Exalts have 46 chromosomes and biomorphs with significant biomods like Rusters and Aquamorphs have 48? Jake Carter: Most Rusters have 47, the corps want us to pay through the nose for our kids. Callosum: Right, and those “Genetic Service Packs” inject an artificial 48th chromosome? Jake Carter: Less a chromosome, more a bundle of genes with inhibitors to prevent DNA Polymerase from attaching so every few months you need the treatment again. When I got the cure on my birth morph they pulled some trick to copy my 47th chromosome without full mitosis. Callosum: Anyways, back on topic, this sample has 52 chromosomes, and four of them don’t look like any Terran genome my database had on file. Some of it looks more like nanobot design specs. Bainbridge: Have you spoken to Aun Bleu? She might have some insights there. (edited)
11:32
Callosum: I thought about it. But then I got into the other chromosomes and found matches in not only Homo sapiens sapiens, but H. sapiens neanderthalensis, H. heidelbergensis, and even H. denisova. Jake Carter: I thought Europeans had Neanderthal genes already? Callosum: Not these ones, some of these sequences are used to distinguish the revived Neanderthals from Splicers. But there’s a lot of material here that doesn’t have any match in known Terran life as well, so much I’m tempted to call this a neogenetic rather than transhuman. Heck, I’d hesitate to call it a primate. Bainbridge: You think it could be a hoax? Callosum: Kind of doubt it, honestly. You know anything about phylogenetics? Bainbridge: Estimation of evolutionary relationships by tracking mutations in the genome. Callosum: Close enough. Most artificial genetic modifications stand out for either the lack of divergence or a massive amount of divergence, depending on how competent the techs were. The four nanotech chromosomes are obvious recent modifications, on evolutionary timescales at least. But the rest of the genome is far, far older. Bainbridge: How old? Callosum: It’s hard to tell without more information, but from what I can see here it seems likely that whoever created this morph’s ancestors could have taken their samples from live specimens.
📌 1
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That's very EP.
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An Archive of Our Own, a project of the Organization for Transformative Works
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sees Zarpaulek has some EP stuff to his name Ooooouuuh, sweeet!
13:51
dives right on in
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I was a little disappointed that most of the other EP fics on AO3 were little more than porn.
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It's AO3.
14:25
Figures that's the case.
14:25
Which is sad because I also find more philosophical fics on AO3 than on FF.net.
14:25
But you have to filter the same sort of shit.
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Well, aside from their content restrictions (which in my experience aren't enforced much), FFN's sorting system is very unadaptable, just putting crossovers in a separate category from single-source fics makes some works almost impossible to find
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I might get back to that Eldraeverse/EP fic eventually
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Morgrim Moon 06/27/2019 10:02 AM
I'm idly toying with writing a followup to Heads and Tails. It'd probably be something along the lines of "eldrae is having a lot of fun hauling their primitive friend along the journey to being not-a-primitive, and the enthusiastic flailing makes it worthwhile"
👍 4
😁 4
10:08
possibly having alien deciding a reasonable medium term goal is finding an occupation so she can afford to try All The Bioshells because so many of them look like they have interesting features and ooh, what if you took this element from that one and grafted it onto that one over there... Which might presumably lead to friend pointing out that crafting custom shells is a profession, should they go look up how to enter it?
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I approve this thought.
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Morgrim Moon 06/27/2019 10:48 AM
😃
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Morgrim Moon 07/31/2019 10:55 AM
setting related question: if you've just ripped someone's brain that was not optimised, you've said it needs to be properly converted/formatted after if you want plug-and-play functionality on standard shells. Fair enough. Would someone in the Expansion Regions who has tech to mindrip their primative-and-inconveniently-dying friend have the tech for the formatting? Is it kind of an automatic part of the process? Or is that a 'swing by the clinic later' sort of thing?
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BluejayHurricane 08/01/2019 1:19 AM
And can they taste the color purple before formatting?
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@Overmind can confirm this, but I‘d hazzard that for the eldrae and empire members and their associates, a spacefaring contacted species soon becomes the field of corporate entities seeking profitable contracts with locals about biotech and noetic research and adaptation.
06:32
Given the way statistics and academica slant, you‘re probably going to find enough people to start building parsing interfaces and such.
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Morgrim Moon 08/01/2019 6:38 AM
yes, but this alien is from a culture still in the early stages of that, when the corporations are still making connections and figuring out markets and this particular market is big on the "we like your space stuff" and very distrustful of the "okay but can you PROVE these cybernetics won't eat my brain?"
06:39
so alien in question is, frankly, extremely astonished they woke up in the borrowed shell and went "...hang on I'm me, that's not how it's supposed to work"
06:39
(Eldrae adventurer was too busy being relieved at the instant acceptance of "I am still me" to facepalm at that)
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I have a better idea. Use your primitive genetically modified pet's brains to act as a bridge to the friend's brain. That way, you can rase the 'pets' without pesticides, call them 'organic', and open up to a new consumer group.
🤔 4
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Morgrim Moon 08/01/2019 6:40 AM
I have no idea what you just said
06:40
I mean, if they're a pet they're not going to eat it
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Jade Nekotenshi 08/01/2019 8:23 AM
Yep. that last phrase came out of east hyperspace
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On a sidenote, is that an established saying? Where did it come from?
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Jade Nekotenshi 08/01/2019 8:38 AM
Which, east hyperspace?
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yeah
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Jade Nekotenshi 08/01/2019 8:39 AM
It's a bit of hackish slang, I think. I heard it from a few cow-orkers many moons ago, most of whom were 30+ years older than me. I've also found a reference to it in ESR's Jargon File
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huh (edited)
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@Morgrim Moon In the modern day, the psylisp compiler software comes built into the cerebral bridge; it's all one unit. Very rarely is someone going to want a raw mind emulation rather than a proper compiled mind-state, so it makes sense to do it that way. Where it may be interesting is that someone has to have written the appropriate module for the compiler to cope with that species neural architecture, because it has to understand what it's compiling. The odds are good that, if it exists, their shipbrain or whatever will have picked it up for them when traveling to a region where that species is around, just as a routine update, but someone does have to have written one in the first place. (edited)
21:32
It's usually not a terribly difficult task unless their neural architecture is all kinds of weird. since the relevant people have had a lot of practice at this, but it does have to be done.
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0111narwhalz 08/01/2019 9:32 PM
"pylisp" makes me think of some kind of horrible amalgamate involving huge depths of nested functions, but with indentation instead of parentheses.
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Oops, missing s there.
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Morgrim Moon 08/01/2019 10:31 PM
Okay, so there's going to be a module, with at worst a flag on it reading "extensive testing not yet performed, please report any bugs to <address>"
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Yeah. And they will have done pretty solid acceptance testing for it to be published at all, so any errors are going to be weird things down in the noise, like "why does cilantro now taste good?" or "is it just me, or is red kinda... redder?" (edited)
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Morgrim Moon 08/02/2019 2:02 AM
"Can identify a camouflaged boomer more easily. Please leave that in and flag as a feature, boomers are the local apex predator"
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MarcusAurelius 08/02/2019 2:03 AM
...that’s one way to describe “civilization ender”, sure
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0111narwhalz 08/02/2019 2:13 AM
hmm neither of my internal definitions of "boomer" line up with those statements, please elaborate
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literal, maybe?
02:15
an alien apex predator which explodes
02:15
and is somehow a apex predator despite exploding
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MarcusAurelius 08/02/2019 2:16 AM
@0111narwhalz SSBN
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0111narwhalz 08/02/2019 2:16 AM
I'm afraid that acronym doesn't help much?
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i am equally confused
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MarcusAurelius 08/02/2019 2:19 AM
Submarine, nuclear, ballistic missile, aka “boomer” aka “I have more explosive firepower than every bomb dropped during WW2, and for three months at a time no one can find me”
02:19
lmao
02:19
that'd be some glitch if it helped you find submarines
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MarcusAurelius 08/02/2019 2:20 AM
It was a bad pun that I didn’t realize people wouldn’t get
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eh, its fine
02:20
we all make obscure puns
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Morgrim Moon 08/02/2019 2:53 AM
Here "boomer" is a male kangaroo, but I was thinking some carnivore sort of critter that booms like emu do
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BizarroLand ♀ 08/02/2019 3:07 AM
@MarcusAurelius I was thinking about the really obvious use of boomer
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Boomer is often used as slang for a Ballistic Missile Submarine
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Morgrim Moon 08/02/2019 11:47 AM
not here. Here it is primarily male kangaroos, secondarily any animal that makes an echoy noise and is big (so lions would probably count if we had any), but is always a living being
ℹ 3
11:47
so yes, clearly I utterly fucked up and you're having great fun laughing at my fail
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Australian submarines hunting for Boomers in the great inland sea - Emu War
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Enderminion 08/02/2019 2:29 PM
just remember to sneak the Torpedo up their Baffles, else they Shoot
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MarcusAurelius 08/02/2019 2:37 PM
Ah, the Great American strategy
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Does anyone have any good ides for transhumanism-enabled souls?
06:27
This is mostly re: crossing over with magic-systems which attach magic bullshit to the soul
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Morgrim Moon 08/05/2019 6:27 AM
more information required
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And avoiding forking-abuse on protagonist-souls while not disabling forking entirely
06:27
Or at least disabling it interestingly
06:28
Basically
06:28
We have someone with a "special soul" - a MTG color-mage or planewalker, for example
06:28
And we dump them in a high-tech world
06:28
What do we do?
06:28
Re: re-sleeving, forking, etc
06:29
Backup loading too
06:29
This is about crossover integration, mainly
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Morgrim Moon 08/05/2019 6:30 AM
I'm still not sure what you'ree trying to do. Go back a step?
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I'm trying to develop ideas with how to handle magic-systems which give protagonist-grade powersets to a small number of souls in an enviroment which allows for forking, resleeving, and mind-backups.
06:31
Or just, like
06:31
If there are literal souls
06:31
What does that do to the Eldraeverse?
06:31
How do re-sleeving or backups interact with an afterlife?
06:32
I want to avoid both weird states where something like an afterlife no longer serves it's purpose
06:32
I also want to keep reality-breaking abuse to medium levels
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 6:33 AM
You're asking how to reconcile continuity-based "magic" and pattern-based "tech," right?
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To some extent?
06:34
Some of the stuff is not so much continuity-based as simply naively assuming no duplication? (edited)
06:34
Alternatively, one could model a soul as a specific metaphysical material?
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 6:34 AM
Which is continuity-adjacent V:
06:35
You could share one soul between all executing copies, maybe?
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Plausible
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 6:35 AM
If you put a copy in inert storage, it has its share of your soul.
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(I had the thought that copies would gain fresh souls when they enter a soul-granting metaphysical realm)
06:36
(But that has so much abuse)
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 6:36 AM
It doesn't release that piece of soul until it's erased.
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And this anchors a soul to the "still-living" domain of soulness?
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 6:37 AM
At which point the soul fragment presumably exits, rather than redistributing.
06:37
Yeah, I guess?
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Why would it exit rather than redistributing?
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 6:38 AM
because possibilities for sketchy activities involving soul-ansibles
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Because that implies you could damage a soul by copy-pasting it many times?
06:38
Eh
06:38
Soul-ansibles is not a deep-seated issue
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 6:38 AM
although now I think about it that may be a plus :V
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Also assume that soul-stuff only transmits data at C
06:38
like the speed of sound in soul =< C
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 6:39 AM
mhm
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Which leads to sketchy shit if you have a shared mana-pool?
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 6:39 AM
Can you trap soul fragments in black holes?
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... I suppose?
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 6:40 AM
Consider also what a soul actually means here.
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Are souls subject to gravity?
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 6:41 AM
GR would have us believe that pretty much everything that exists in space is affected by gravity.
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"Spiritual Reservoir with secondary cognition/memory functions and plug-ins for magical stuff"
06:41
Souls tend to remain in place relative to planets
06:41
Despite intangibility
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 6:42 AM
Can you provision your soul fragments, or is it always shared equally/proportionally to some other quantity?
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Morgrim Moon 08/05/2019 6:42 AM
you could add in consequences for letting your soulparts get too far from each other
06:42
That just nerfs forking weirdly
06:43
Though
06:43
Why don't people over-fork massively?
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Morgrim Moon 08/05/2019 6:43 AM
if you're looking at it from a game/setting balance perspective, it's the counter balance to the soul-bound powers
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Like, normal non-magic people
06:43
Eh
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Morgrim Moon 08/05/2019 6:43 AM
because you still have to PAY for everything your fork has
06:43
like bodies
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I mean, yeah
06:43
I was going to have them all share a resource-pool
06:43
Probably split in size proportional to your fragment (edited)
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 6:44 AM
If your mana pool is shared between your whole soul, you need to wait for mana to "flow" from a distant fragment to the one you're actually trying to use.
06:44
So only the mana in the local fragment+mana regen (edited)
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Morgrim Moon 08/05/2019 6:44 AM
and since you're re-merging soon - otherwise it's not a fork, it's a form of reproduction - you can't get extra resources by forking heavily
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Is topical
06:44
Hmm
06:44
Point
06:44
Divergence
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Morgrim Moon 08/05/2019 6:45 AM
you're gonna need some sort of either sharing-of-experience for soul pieces, or consquences for splitting for too long, or again you're going to have twinning
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 6:45 AM
If you diverge too far, your soul fragments start to desynchronize, and mana flow becomes obstructed.
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We can just model this by saying "Ties between soul-fragments weaken while forked as divergence occurs - each heals to a full soul as a gradual process in divergance"
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Morgrim Moon 08/05/2019 6:46 AM
then you've got a way of duplicating the rare powers
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Hmm, yeah
06:46
But it's slow
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Morgrim Moon 08/05/2019 6:46 AM
so is sex
06:46
I don't care if the powers are heritable vis sex (edited)
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Morgrim Moon 08/05/2019 6:46 AM
meaning, unless these powers are heritable, you now have a GUARANTEED method of spreading them
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Depending on how the powers actually work
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Morgrim Moon 08/05/2019 6:47 AM
and that's going to inevitably lead to ruling dynasties
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 6:47 AM
As the mana flow gets choked off, maybe the limiting factor of split souls also chokes and you get fragments that don't "know" they're not supposed to be full souls.
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Soul-mutilation and re-growth probably alters soul-linked powersets
06:47
Though we're talking about abstracts over a dozen possible magic systems here
06:47
So it's all complicated
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 6:47 AM
hmm, you could have an "aspect" system
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Also this system probably won't globalise
06:48
And the existence of realistically modeled protagonist-grade power-sets in historical contexts probably leads to weird ruling factions anyway (edited)
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 6:49 AM
You can shuffle aspects around between fragments—subject to the speed of light, of course—but you have to conserve them.
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Like magical organs?
06:49
Possible
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 6:49 AM
yeah pretty much
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(I suspect there'd be a bunch of teething problems in the re-growth process also)
06:50
(Since souls aren't really meant to re-grow >50% of thier mass)
06:50
(Even in perfect conditions and with life-support from the rest of the mass)
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 6:50 AM
If you split too far, you run out of aspects and the fragments go "hollow" and can't regenerate mana.
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Depends what you mean by mana
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 6:51 AM
Is the magic system limited by a consumable magical resource?
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Shrug
06:51
I'm not picking a specific setting
06:52
But also most non-video-game settings with a consumable magical resource have specific metaphysics and regeneration methods surrounding it
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 6:52 AM
It's probably not limited by physical resources, or it wouldn't be tied so tightly to the soul.
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Lots of them are!
06:52
MTG implies magic is mostly drawn from connection with lands?
06:52
At least mechanically - I haven't read the books
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 6:53 AM
It could be limited by the soul in a "featureset" kind of way.
06:53
Souls can exert magical influence in a certain number of distinct ways, and if you don't have that tool you can't use it.
06:53
But it doesn't consume anything.
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That's another possbility
06:54
But I'm not writing my own magic-system here
06:54
I'm building a toolkit for integrating existing ones
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 6:55 AM
If it expends a magical resource that normally regenerates over time, call it mana and proceed.
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I mean, yeah
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 6:55 AM
V:
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But also what about all the other resources?
06:55
How many magic systems actually do it that way?
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 6:56 AM
Physical resources are physical resources—no need to change anything.
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 6:56 AM
Connections to gods might still be squishy.
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Yeah, and specific-invocation systems are mostly dependent on the specific invocation (edited)
06:57
Hmm
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 6:57 AM
as one might have guessed by the term used
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I wonder how this would interact with the weirder Forging use-cases
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 6:57 AM
"Forging" non sequitor
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(The magic-system used in the Emperor's Soul)
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 6:57 AM
well now it's just a null reference
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(Allowing for the editing of the history of a object or person by use of a carefully milled stamp, assuming the person making/using it meets certain metaphysical requirements)
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 6:58 AM
sounds like an editorial time machine to me
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It's more limited
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 6:59 AM
oh good, it has brakes
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Specifically in the sense that it overwrites a target with a alternate version
06:59
Not history in general
06:59
So you get replaced with "You, but you learned martial arts instead of forging" (edited)
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 6:59 AM
blankets over atom bombs
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But the world stays the same
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 7:00 AM
That implies unsettling things about how history works.
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It's not a time-machine?
07:01
It's a editing-mechanism which involves re-writing backstory
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 7:01 AM
Though I guess one murder and/or suicide is better than literally all of them.
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It's also temporary?
07:01
And fairly identity-conservartive
07:01
And also editing humans is at the upper limit of compelexity the system can handle
07:02
It's mostly for, well, forging - making an object into a more useful fake
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 7:02 AM
It would definitely be regarded as ethically questionable, with the highest raised eyebrows available, by the eldrae.
07:02
They have those mental overlays?
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 7:02 AM
I mean, psychdesign.
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It's basically a way of doing that with a artistic rock
07:03
(Though actually)
07:03
(Modern milling techniques would be a massive boon)
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 7:03 AM
But also concerningly close to "we unmade this person and then remade them almost the same but not quite"
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(Since the main limiting feature is resolution on a structurally sound level)
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 7:03 AM
nanoscale machining V:
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I mean
07:04
I don't think they'd have an issue with you useing it on yourself
07:04
And using it on someone else is a nigh-impossible task
07:04
(The plot of the story is just 100% about someone trying to do that)
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 7:05 AM
Using psychedesign on someone else against their consent is a Bad, so maybe they're already well-equipped.
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Yeah, I don't think they'd encounter novel moral ground here
07:05
It's just a really weird psyche-design vector
07:05
That mostly works on vases
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 7:06 AM
man I'm glad something can improve the psychology of those vases
07:07
Does the one executing the magic have to be the one to make the stamp?
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Anyone can use the stamp once made
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 7:08 AM
Is it a matter of "putting oneself into one's art" or "you can pick any old one off the shelf and it'll work if you work?"
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Making them?
07:09
It's a matter of really heavy circumstantial work, mostly
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 7:09 AM
That is, does the magic actually happen during the making or the using, or both?
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You need to understand fairly comprehensively the change being made and make a stamp custom to that single change
07:09
shrugs
07:09
We don't get that much detail on the metaphysics
07:09
I could speculate?
07:10
But it'd be rampant speculation
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Speaking for myself and the 'verse, since the logos is already a weird quantum/subquantum phenomenon, and since I'm already using a NLHV quantum interpretation, it is easy enough to define the soul as another nonlocal quantum phenomenon, shared between all instances. Except not, because each one has all of it; it's the class and they're the instances, not copies.
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The maker is the one who needs to meet the metaphysical criteron
07:10
@Overmind the problem with stuff like that is resource management
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 7:11 AM
For what it's worth, I have a magic system which is almost purely pattern-theory.
07:11
(I haven't yet worked out what "willpower" actually is)
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I need good reasons for $munchkin to not copy-paste themselves a thousand times for magic buffs
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Afterlives are messy, but maybe that is what happens when your instance-count falls to zero and the Big Garbage Collector In The Sky runs.
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 7:12 AM
But basically, anyone can draw the fancy patterns—you need someone with the right mind for doing magic to compel its execution.
07:13
some people say the world will end in fire, some in ice I say it will end in segfaults
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The same good reasons why they shouldn't copy themselves a thousand times for punch buffs, whatever those are.
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"Keeping the narrative scope personal"
07:14
(Also, what are those reasons?)
07:14
(Why doesn't the empire fork it's best warrior 10 million times rather than putting up with anything less?)
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simple
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Morgrim Moon 08/05/2019 7:14 AM
again, funding it. And you can only punch with so many hands at once
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predictability
07:14
"oh hey, its this guy again. Just dodge left, he always aims from the right"
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(Because the problem with a giant fork army is that if you know how to defeat one of it, you know how to defeat all of it.)
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Okay, fork the best 0.1% 1000 times each
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same issue
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You know what I mean
07:15
Really no
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even two identicals in combat is potentially 1 less soldier
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 7:15 AM
If a non-mage wants to use magic, a mage has to "bind" the pattern to permanently activate it.
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This really isn't a big enough issue
07:16
How often does a soldier get taken out by a hack like that?
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on that small of a scale its probably not a huge issue, but with reasonable numbers of copies it probably still is
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Okay, on a economic front?
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I think what we are saying here is that there can easily be plenty of in-universe reasons why massive-self-duplication, much like turning into a giant snake, never helps.
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exactly
07:16
was just about to bring that up
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 7:16 AM
The "copies are predictable" thing seems contra to the nondeterminism thing.
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but it doesn't play well with a protagonist
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Yeah, and I'm trying to extract them from you
07:17
So that I can cite them during munchkin-times
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And in the 'verse: every time it's been tried . The fork-army thing is the sort of thing that shows up in cliched movies.
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(Esp since any one imperial has a much bigger incentive to fork massively)
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"copy yourself 1,000 times and they're all just as magical" can be defeated if they all have the same magical weakness that can be rapidly exploited
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 7:17 AM
>it makes you look like the worst kind of narcissist
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The key point there
07:17
Is that if there's just one of you
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the problem is, if the protagonist does that, that means the protagonist has a massive weakness. inherently.
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You still get defeated if that weakness gets exploited
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exactly yeah
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And you don't get the benefits of e.g. all the other wins you rack up
07:18
Or to shoot the guy a hundred times while he's exploiting the weakness on fork #302
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 7:18 AM
scads of identical mind-clones? foolish
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i mean, if the weakness is a virulent meme that spreads over communication channels, you don't need to exploit it more than once
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The problem I'm mostly having with considering the problems of massive forking is that I'm having real trouble trying to come up with any problems that I might best solve by massive forking.
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 7:19 AM
no forking? risky
07:19
a couple of low-divergence forks? responsible
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If you make a net profit on action in a unit of time and have time-limited needs then you fork to speed progress and resource acquisition? (edited)
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yeah, multiple forks with a small amount of divergence could be useful for approaching the same problem from slightly different angles, and for brainpower multiplication; you can work on the multiple aspects of the same problem simultaneously
07:20
i mean, there are people who do self groupminds right?
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Or more relevantly on a hundred different problems in a hundred different places (edited)
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that too
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Then cash them all in
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 7:21 AM
like an ensemble of hurricane foretracks, you can examine where you're going as an aggregate person, and reinforce the version you like best
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i could see doing that in combat if you're between a rock and a hard place; having a exploitable army with initiative might be better than 100 bio drones
07:21
but you wouldn't want to make a habit of it
07:22
or on a large scale. The larger, the riskier.
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Yeah. For three or nine or 27 forks, maybe. If it goes much beyond that, why am I not building an automated factory of some kind? Also, bear in mind, I get to cash in less than if I distributed my sophonce around, because there's more of me. I don't get to collect 1000 x the profit; all of me gets to collect the same profit each, and none of me is going to agree that I'm the me who should benefit more from the arrangement.
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It's narratively terrible so, but I want arguments which work on $munchkin, esp if he's got reality-hopping powers which mean he has a lot of low-hanging fruit that needs exploited (edited)
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oooh, what if having multiple forks lets you do exploit testing that is impossible or impractical with a single copy of the same magic soul
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Say there are 100 settings, each with a magic system
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if there's communication between them, you could have sorta like uhh, race condition-ish stuff
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You send three forks to work on getting access to each
07:23
Then merge and share knowledge
07:24
Leading to crossover benifits as the details of magic systems interact
07:24
see every planeswalker multicrossover ever (edited)
07:25
In general nigh-perfect co-operation gets you a lot of edge benifits
07:25
As does parallelization
07:25
There's stuff a hundred people working in concert can do which one never could
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i agree its useful in non-combat, i'm just trying to think a way around "protagonist forks self 1,000 times, every copy is just as strong, bing bang boom the evil guy is punched by 1,000 space fists of doom at once"
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 7:25 AM
maybe forking is just this setting's benefit?
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without also giving them weaknesses solo
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(Outcompete a rival for example)
07:25
I want vastening to be this setting's benefit (edited)
07:26
Full transhumanism is a big enough deal
07:26
That I want to nerf forking
07:26
Also forking is just bad for the story
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 7:26 AM
They're kind of similar.
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It means I need to keep track of X threads through every real-time
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 7:26 AM
Vastening is serial, forking is parallel.
07:27
Both is just stupid expensive.
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They are! But Vastening is less of an issue because I still only need to care about one protagonist POV
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the mental and forking capabilities are the biggest benefit, but i'd say there's some other major stuff as well; Diamondoid bones, artifical muscles, and catch-a-bullet fast reflexes, anyone?
07:27
It's a big deal! (edited)
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 7:27 AM
So you choose vastening, because it makes a better story, and backfill circumstances and in-story logic.
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Forking is more story-breaking than balance-breaking
07:28
yup!
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Morgrim Moon 08/05/2019 7:28 AM
there's always the meta option. "For reasons of GM sanity, forking is limited to 4 instances at any one time. And you still have to buy a body for each"
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i mean, if that was a option, i'd pretty much take that immediately in addition to anything else. Hardly any downside, really; even if you don't expect to need it, it's still nice to have.
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I don't project money to be an issue
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 7:28 AM
This character has, I presume, finite resources.
07:28
SILLY IDEA
07:28
what if
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How much do the eldrae pay for "I will teach you magic"?
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Morgrim Moon 08/05/2019 7:28 AM
I've found that if you've got powergaming players, they respond a lot better to a firm "no because I say so for a reasonable reason" than in-game reasons
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so what if, since magic souls are instances of the same thing
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Not really players here (edited)
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they're all the same nonlocal variables
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Just writing
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when you cast spell X
07:29
any fork
07:29
with the same variable
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0111narwhalz 08/05/2019 7:29 AM
oh no
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But I don't want to back-fill with bad answers
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it comes out of every instance
07:29
identically.
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So I"m looking for good answers
07:29
That's terrible
07:29
And also broken
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if fork A is in combat, and casts fireball
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specifically broken
07:29
Also janky
07:30
I dislike janky
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fork B, who was sitting down and reading, suddenly burns a bunch of books
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Also def doesn't impact all magic systems
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fair enough
07:30
but i feel like it'd still work for being broken, but also impractical in many-fork situations
07:31
go ahead, copy yourself 1,000 times and then trying to figure out firing lines with no friendly fire
07:31
good luck
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Use magic without casting lines?
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make it all relative?
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Use a small magical warning and then an artifact which puts all but the combat-forks in a hardened shell (edited)
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the spell that surround the bad guy in a poison field also poisons a thousand other spots with the same offset from other forks
07:32
a warning spell goes off for all of them if any one is triggered
07:32
etc
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How much do the eldrae pay for "I will teach you magic"? Amusingly enough, I have needed to answer this question for the Advancedverse. The answer is: all of it.
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No surprised!
07:33
(I had another plot-idea in my head)
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high-level applied ontotech is pretty damned useful
07:33
the hard part is proving that, yes, you really have super fancy ontotech
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(Which is a wormfic where the alt-power is "Taylor gets a direct line to the transcend in her head - gets a rapid-uplift manual and a thereapist assigned)
07:33
(That one's metaphysically much simpler)
07:34
Shrug?
07:34
Telepathy is pretty neat!
07:34
Conservation-violation can be proven fairly easily
07:34
(If you can get energy from elsewhere, that's nearly as interesting)
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that's a big deal
07:35
conservation-violation means "hey, we just fixed entropy!"
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Fuck yeah!
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that's like, their #1 goal
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It is!
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that's worth all the money right there
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Which is why it makes "How much money do you have" a non-issue in this reality
07:36
Because you have all of it
07:36
Or whatever percentage of it you can have and have the economy still be meaningfull
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that also means that, depending on the situation, you have practically unlimited manpower and resources
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you could buy out a entire mercenary company
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I'd be going with the Ignition rules and saying you can only summon between universes if you have a personal connection
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yeah, if all you have is a multiversal phone, that makes things much more difficult
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i.e. they're a named charecter with non-trivial screen-time
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Morgrim Moon 08/05/2019 7:38 AM
I spent too long trying to work out what the rocket science book Ignition! had to do with alternate universes
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My brains default inter-universe bullshit is MTG planeswalking
07:38
To be clear
07:38
No, the SV quest Ignition
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but at the same time, you can tell your contact to hire as many people as necessary to figure it out and then work out a way to make a bootstraping cornucopia from local materials
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So for the "has magic, will travel" idea, you can get between universes
07:39
As can a select group of your close companions
07:39
define "close companion"
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So much more, you hire the best eldrae first-in soph as your bodyguard
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can your friend plug in a moon brain before they leave?
07:39
and take it with them?
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"Named character with positive relationship and multiple pages screen-time"
07:40
I suspect costs increase in scope with such things
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fair point
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So yes, but it costs all the mana
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i don't suppose the transcend can bootstrap from a fragment?
07:40
if it gets forewarning, at least?
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I imagine it can, but also needs infrastructure (edited)
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i mean, if nothing else Eldrae have nanotech in their blood in most instances
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But yes, dump it on a modern-setting and it rules the internet v. quickly
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bootstrapping to a cornucopia should be possible
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Or keep one in your backpack as you shift?
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